Well, broadly speaking what's happening is that huge numbers of people, 95% or so in developing countries are moving from the coutryside to the towns and they are  doing so at a pretty rapid pace and particularly fast in the poorest and least urbanuzed parts of the world which means Africa above all, and Asia so you  are  now seeing in cities that are really quite small and relatively easily organized a few years ago the ??? of huge areas of  essentially a slums and this is indeed a huge change

  Right and your  report takes up ttwo of the worlds two biggest slums Cabera in Nairobi and Deriva in Mumbai. Can you  tell us what life is like for people living in these settlements?

  Well it's a pretty precarious existance in many respects.The definition of a slum is that you are  without certain services and what is tipical for  most of these places is that you  are  without  water, without sanitation, without  electricity and above all without  any security or tenure, that  means that you  can be chucked out at anytime, you  cant't get insurance for your  house, you are not an official person very often you  don't have an address, and you  have no ability to borrow on the value of your  house, and no incentive really to improve it so all of this makes for a very difficult living. But having said that, one of the striking things about going slums which are  indeed squalid really in many respect and makes it very hard for anyone who is used to living in a western city to imagine what it would be like to live there, but it is very striking actually that many people in the slums are  really quite cheerful. And this is in a sense a tribute to I suppose the human spirit that even in the face of considerable adversity, so many people get on with their life, they are busy, they are making money, and they organize themselves in an extraordinarily impressive way. But you  just leave with a sense of how much better everything  would be for them if they were'nt condemned to this kind of living. So while they do seem cheerful, life could be very much better for them.

And are there signs, that some cities are beginning to take some responsibility for these slums?

  Oh yes I think in many places there has been quite considerable improvements in the life of many slum dwellers. And in some part of the world in Asia in particular, but also in north Africa for instance life has got better for many people and many slums have been improved upgraded and that's also happening in part of Africa and Asia that have broadly speaking  been left behind but only in parts of them and the reality is that for most people particularly people who are just arriving tin the cities from the countryside slum life is pretty ghastly and therefore for many people it is actually getting worse and the growth of the slum is faster than the actual growth of urbanization in many places

Looking at the rich world now you  point out that it appears that it has put most of its urbaniyation behind it, yet rich cities are also facing changes and challanges could you tell us more about this?

  Well there has always been ??? about generalizing abot cities and there are  lots of rich cities in the rich world that are  doing very nicely. And the same is true of some cities in the developing world. But a common problem particularly of those cities that were founded or expanded at the end of the 19-th century or during the period the period that followed the industrial revolution which brought an enormous migration of people from the countryside to the cities and those cities of course with deindustrializaton and to some extent the decline of manufacturing have began to suffer and this is widely manifests in North America for instance in the Rust Belt and some extent it is also true in Britain and other european countries. That to same that quite old established cities like Chicago and Buffalo which have seen a drift from the center of the city towards the suborbs or at any rate towards the periphery and the center seems to be dying. And that is in a way a disturbing phenomenon for established cities because once the center dyes than it is very hard to keep the heart of the city quite literally alive and beating and there is a fear that this will happen in other places.

  Is that when a city needs to reinvent itself?

 Yes I think that it certainly is. ASuccesssful city on the whole have the capacity to reinvent itself and many do so very effectively and often not only once but twice or three times and one can see this and its interesting that a city like Boston for instance which is in a sense a relatively modern one three or four hundred years old and in the history of the cities that doesn't make it very old, but this has gone through several transformations and is now essentially large based on a knowledge based economy, education and knowledge being fundamental economic factors that provide the livelihood for many of its people and the kind of reinvention that will be necessary for other cities that might go through these declines, thanks to the death of a particular industry.

  You pinpoint good government as the most important factor in the success of a city as cities continue to grow some into megacities of 10 million or more inhabitants do you see the role of  urban government evolving?

 I wouldn't want to say that good government is necessarily the most important because I think a strong economy is perhaps just as essential but good government is certainly important and yes I think that this is going to become more apparent as more and more people move to cities they are the places where more and more policy is going to has to be concentrated and to some extent you  can see this happening in Britain for instance where it's a relative novelty have elect mayors and city government of that kind put in place and on the whole I think the experiment has been succesful but with the majority of human being living in the cities I think the cities are going to be seen as the right place for many policies to be directed to and from, and that will lead to developments in urban goverment.

  ANd the development of the cities seems to be synonymous with human progress, do you think that we are  permanently moving away from the countrysde, and is this a good thing?

J Yes it's undoubtedly happening and I can't imagine that there could be any reversal there certainly seems to be no sign of it, and all the projections are that ?????? the human race will be living by in cities 2050. Is it a good thing?   - Well it's probably better to live in urban poverty, than to live in rural poverty.  And why do I say that, well essentially because that's why people are  coming to the cities, they come to the cities because they have the hope of a better life and very often if you  live in extreme poverty in Africa or India say you don't have that hope. And it's hope above all, rather than the reality of experience that keeps people in the cities, and brings more and more people to come to the cities.

  Johnny thank you  very for speaking with us.

 Not at all, thank you.

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